Ep8 - Tubsy: Humbleness and dedication to your profession

[00:00:08] Speaker A: Hey, guys, welcome to the Raj call podcast once again. And this week I've got another very, very special guest who I've gotten to know more, even more recently because he's formed me a few days, a few times. Sorry. And also just. He's probably the, uh, one of the. The cornerstones of the UK Pongar industry, I would say. So let me introduce. Well, I'll let him introduce himself over to you. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Right. Okay. Uh, first of all, uh, Satsugal Saran, as you know, this is Tabithi Torquiwola. Um, there it is. Uh, so also, where's the talk, Tubbs? Also, well, parents named me the same, but there we go. Tobztug. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to start, as I said, this podcast that we were talking before we started is about the slogan I call it is, I like to call it in the pursuit of musical excellence. So before we get to that part of it, I want to start like, sort of just tell us a bit about your background, where you're from and how you got into music in the first place. [00:01:27] Speaker B: Background from the heart of Birmingham, Handsworth, born and bred, which is the hub of ukulele. My dad, late Nar Bakker Singh, was also my starji. He actually came over to this country through music. He was a daddy. And they used to play sort of motivational music, just the troops in the second war and the viceroy saw them perform and he was that taken back by their performance and how the effect that genre had on the troops that he gave dad and his band members each of voucher whenever you guys can afford to come to UK and that's your permanent residency. Really? Yeah. So they could. Dad could have come over straight away, you know, he could have sold some and or whatever, but he waited. And that was the solidarity between his band members and the leader of the band, Sad Masasi. Also great was that the start that my band and Saadad waited until they could also afford. And we were ready to come over before dad did. Although he had family presence. He said, look, you've got, you know, go to England, start earning and, you know, and all the rest of it, but that's a major. And so we kind of have that in our DNA, so, you know. And then my elder brother, also late, I'm afraid, seedle thing, famous for that GDR loop. Everybody keeps huge. [00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah, GDR, for those who don't know, give the other any. [00:03:48] Speaker B: And, you know, he was one of the first door players in the UK, got announcing. Teamma was one of his first door players. I got another team mar. My brother used to be in the same place to be called the top. They all went to school together. So as Kang Jamal, Sant Arjinder, Kang Jasbir, all of these guys were actually in a Pangara group before they started. [00:04:13] Speaker A: Which school was it? [00:04:17] Speaker B: I think it was Shyland something, or it was in smelling. [00:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it's called Shyland Academy now. [00:04:25] Speaker B: You know, it was around there, so it could be called something different at that time, but, you know, it was definitely smelling. Right. Um, so, um, yeah. And her brother was also, um, on the original rari singit Miralus Lutkatiyang. Uh, really? [00:04:44] Speaker A: Wow. [00:04:46] Speaker B: Along with, uh, um, the late praseym Kalyan, whose son Nilah is also business. Um, so, yeah, that's my lineage, really. Grew up with loads of instruments, always in the house with my brother being with the stard group, Nadi Singhid, Eskang the Tsakis, etcetera. One of the other kind of almost funny things was that I was even bigger than I am now when I was a kid, and they couldn't get me to lose weight, you know, couldn't get me to do any running or joking or whatever. And so I was always playing these instruments. So my brother, you know, thought of a very clever plan. He got a donkey with a very difficult pace. So in order to get this bass sound out, I'd really have to work hard at it. So I thought, well, let's get him to burn some calories this way. And. But at the same time, they were telling me I wasn't allowed to play music. They wanted me to be some accountant or dentist or something or other. Right. But, you know, getting me to lose weight that way actually backfired on them because, you know, that's where that base comes from. Wow. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Just interesting. You said about your dad playing to the troupe. Was it World War two that time, was it? [00:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:20] Speaker A: Interestingly, I met. I was in London for Kuljit Pomraji's album launch. I met this guy called Tej there. I don't know whether you know him, and he's. He set up, you know, in great Hampton Palace. I can't remember the palace thing. In Hampton. Hampton Palace. I think in London. He's got a Sikh exhibition there, Sikhs in World War one and World War two, he's got the whole. And he's got a website where you can put your bend in. Right. And it tells you who in from that bend fought in World War one. Yeah. It's absolutely fascinating. So I showed him my dad that. His picture. He told me what regiment he was from, where he was from, because, you know, the Bhagati Dida symbol. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:13] Speaker A: He was from the. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:16] Speaker A: So he had the Sikh. He was from the Sikh light infantry infrastructure. I could be saying it wrong because I'm not a military person, but. Yeah, because my granddad was from there, so he was interested. It's really interesting you say that, because it's probably worth checking out after this. I'll send you the website guys. And. [00:07:36] Speaker B: There'S a lot of us in the industry, especially my age, right, mixing Claire. His dad was, you know, in the indian army and around that era, the late David Rajasal. Right. Who himself and his dad was, you know, just to name a couple of that. There's a lot of us whose parents or family members because, you know, in World War two, I'm guessing it wasn't a choice. We've all seen that post arenas at points your country needs you. So, you know, and that was. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. So I just thought I'd mention that because it was quite interesting you said that, so. Okay, so you're learning Tolkie, at that. At that. How old were you then, at that time? [00:08:34] Speaker B: I've got a picture. It's one of these on the walls here somewhere. It's not one of the ones behind me, but there's a picture here somewhere of me when I'm about one years old and I can't reach either side. It's a Nile, so it's a bit longer than it all, but I'm trying, so. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Really? [00:08:59] Speaker B: Wow. You know, it's always been there. [00:09:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Because there's a. There's an argument I'm always into sort of self betterment, you know, to make myself better at stuff and learning, so. But. And I always come across this argument, nature versus nature. Have you ever heard of that? Oh, no. So are you born with it or is it. Is it. Do you have to nurture it? [00:09:21] Speaker B: You know, so I think, um. I think it's boss. You can be born with it. Um, but you'd still have to, you know, you'd have to nurture it, you'd still have to get guidance and you still have to practice and you still have to look at it. Nothing in life ever falls in your laps. No, you have to. So, with me, it was an uphill struggle because I was born with something that family didn't want me to have. Times were very, very different. I mean, you know, maybe my son, a escalade. He's a producer now, and, you know, we encourage him. We support him in, you know, anything that he wants to do, right? But, you know, in my case, that wasn't, you know, times is different than Hanover. It wasn't, you know, although my dad and my brother were both well established, well respected musicians, they didn't want the same for me simply because they were like, look, we haven't really gotten anything out of it. The dad had come over to this country with it. He was like, look, we're here now, right? Don't, you know, don't waste your time doing what we. What we've been doing. And my brother was the same. My brother was like, look, I'm going from kennel to post, right? You know, I'm struggling every day. And the other thing is, this is like, this is like that addiction that you just can't get out of your system. So my brother would find himself and, you know, prioritizing this over work, family, everything, just like I do, right? And, you know, and obviously that has its repercussions, right? If you prioritize this over work, you lose your job, you lose your income, you prioritize this over family, gone after misses. And so, you know, he could see all of that and he didn't want that for me. And so, you know, they weren't just verbal, they were physical about, you know, you're not doing this with a baby. In those days, you could beat your kids up. There was no extra ransom. And downstairs, you know, they. So, you know, I used to go to school sometimes, black and ruined. And, like, the teachers were like, then look at her. He'd be like, yeah, probably not, you know, but really it was like, it was. Somebody catch me either, you know, trying to practice or, you know, I. My brother used to practice in the front route. Had this thing about the. It's like, we've got a bay window even now, right? And he'd be. He'd play the practice with the sunlight coming in. He had this thing about, you know, I would just think. And the one day I managed to sneak in and sit on the sofa while he was practicing. And when he clocked on, oh, I could still remember that. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Anyway, how much was your brother? [00:12:54] Speaker B: My brother was quite. Quite a bit older. 20 or so. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Another father figure, isn't it, basically? [00:13:01] Speaker B: Yeah. In fact, more so. In fact, more so. And so, you know, he got rid of me, so I pretended to go up the stairs. Right. You know, and as soon as he went back in the room, I went and I put my ear to the. To the corner of the door, went straight back for it, you know, knowing the risks, knowing that if it clocked me again, I'd get twice as much, you know, such is the, you know, the calendar. This is the kida, you know, this is the addiction. You know, it just doesn't go away. Yeah. [00:13:44] Speaker A: That's amazing. So. So you. Am I right to say that a lot of it came from listening first? Your. Your just listening to your brother first? A lot of that innate ability to play the Dolgi. [00:14:00] Speaker B: I think the most important part of a musician's body are your ears. We're all mimics, right? You know, we listen to something, and we kind of mimic it, you know, we kind of to replicate it. We try to reproduce it before they've written it down for you, before. Whatever they've done, they've played it for you, right? Whether that be a keyboard, whether that be a vocal, whether that be a percussion, whatever it is, right. So you absorb it first. So, you know, I remember Raj Sahota from Sahota's amazing, amazing percussionist. Right? He. He used to. He found a way, right. In those days, it was v eight tests, right. Now, only some of your listeners will know what one of those is, right. He found a way of slowing these videos down so that he could hear whatever these people. He's now a student of star Tariqan, but he's fan of starry concert. So he could hear what these people were playing, slow down, so that he could mimic it easily, you know, pick it up and replay it. So, you know, I firmly believe that, you know, most important part. Yeah. [00:15:35] Speaker A: We were talking about this on our journey, what we remember to London. We were talking about this because that's how I practice as well. So I was practicing Sabar Kotiji song, kavangu, and some of the vocal. The runs he has in there, the vocal runs he has in there. The Harkatha and meal and stuff in there. I was trying to think, man, I can't do this. I had to slow it down. I slowed it, half timed it. Even when I half timed it, still couldn't. That's how good sabha could be. [00:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah. The thing with, you know, the thing with, like, Sabbath or people like that, Sahota, that anybody, like I said before, it just doesn't fall in your laps. No, Terry, right. They've taken those beatings. They've pursued against all odds, right? And that's, you know, that's a part of your success. Right. You know, you've got to have had a difficult journey to be able to then sustain. When you do accomplish, to be able to sustain it, you look back and you think, you know, this is where I've come from. This is how hard it's been for me to. To build it. There's no way I'm going to let it go. And the only way you can't let it go is keep on practicing, maintain and progress. Right. Because, you know, there's the old cliche, you know, sangeet ocean, right. And it's never ending. There's nobody, no musician right in the world that can say that mastered it. All, right? I've done it. Right. It's just not possible. No. Right. So the only thing that there is for, you know, those dedicated musicians is to keep on going. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. So let's get back to your journey. So are you dad's. So your brother's giving the toluk, you're giving the dolki. So how did they. Did they teach you some basic things at that time? Or was it just. Did you just pick it up yourself and started jamming yourself? [00:18:00] Speaker B: What dad used to do is dad used to come home from work. Dad used to. Because dad was a vocalist as well. Dad, synagogues. You play the dad and you sing at the same time. Right? So dad was tall that skipped regeneration. Dad was the singer that skipped a generation. My son, as Gallard is learning vocals. Right. I heard him, actually, just. [00:18:26] Speaker A: Was that him on the piano and on your instagram yesterday? I think so. He was singing Gurdas Manz. [00:18:38] Speaker B: No, no, no. That was. That was Navi. That was one of our singers from the band. Okay. [00:18:44] Speaker A: Because I couldn't see who it was because you could only see the back. He was a good vocalist. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:49] Speaker A: I thought he was your son first. [00:18:54] Speaker B: So a lot of things have skipped generation. So dad would sing and get me to accompany him, and he would correct me wherever I went wrong. Right. Which was hypocritical, because he didn't want me to play, but he still wanted. He still was working. He would still hold progression and maintenance and everything that I've just been talking about. He was still doing that. So he would get me to accompany him, play, and, like, you know, say, yeah, wl w. And then say, but that's how. And that was every day. Right. I would wait until dad came home. Right. And, like, wait until he's like, his dad is routine, everything. Okay. Time it just right. Make sure he's in a good mood, because I wanted him to, you know, to sing. And, you know, and he looked forward to it as well. So that was. That was like. That was our bonding. That was our practice. That was everything. [00:20:00] Speaker A: That's amazing. Like, just the atmosphere you've been brought up in, like, the. The background, having that every day, that's like every musician's dream, isn't it, really? [00:20:12] Speaker B: It was. I mean, looking back on it, it was. It was amazing. You know, the dad would sing, and he would sing some difficult stuff sometimes, and there wasn't any YouTube. There wasn't any. Anything that he could reference to say, so he'd have to physically get the talk. He showed me Arnie and sort of, you know, get me on my feet that way. And, you know, at the same time, you know, that became our father and something. And it was also my study thing as well. So, you know, we kind of ticked a lot of boxes at the same time. [00:20:56] Speaker A: So that. Because that's what you need, isn't it, to practice every day. I mean, just to have that atmosphere. I mean, even your dad having a percussionist at home as well, doing that, that works both ways, doesn't it? Both ways. [00:21:08] Speaker B: So, like I said, you know, he got his reals there and I got mine. [00:21:15] Speaker A: Phenomenal. So that's basically how you started off and how you learned everything. [00:21:19] Speaker B: Did you. [00:21:19] Speaker A: Did you ever learn to learn the sort of, as you're doing tulki, the classical side of it, like the sort of beat the kerar and the Japanese and all that? [00:21:29] Speaker B: So what happened was that when. When I was at school, there was only about three or four of his agents there. And this. This, you know, thing followed me to school, you know, I used to pass the music room and. And, you know, in formative years, you know, when music is compulsory, and I'd be, like, on the table and everything else, you know, and I asked dad, they. Dad, they never put Chad, you know, our music teacher was called Mister Brooke, right? But like I said, can I bring an instrument in? I can play a bit of an instrument, right? You know, they were trying to get me to play the recorder and stuff like that. It just wasn't. You know what I mean? I just wasn't happy, right? And so he said, yeah, okay. So he gave me the okay. So, you know, I walked into school the next day looking like a jumble tail. You know, it's like, here we go. And so the teacher, mister rook, was particularly. I mean, Tabla has always been the most international out of our. Out of our percussion instruments. Oh, he was like, okay, can you play this and I thought I could. And so he said, look at the town hall, bearing in mind this is. I think this is about 80, 419. 84. Right? 84, 85. He goes, these three girls are performing Birmingham town hall. I haven't got any accompaniment. Will you play? Right. And, you know, I thought it was just going to be like that stuff, like, which is all Gerald. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:37] Speaker B: I didn't know anything about Penthal and Rupert and brother and everything else. I still don't, you know, so that, you know, got dropped in the deep end. I pulled it off somehow, right. You know, as most of the industry will tell you, right, anybody that can blag it and. But the Siddhartha teacher was a lady called misses Latta. And misses Latta said to me, she goes, look, enthusiasm, you've got the drive, the guidance. She said, look, we have. Every Saturday, we have a class at Holyhead School in Hansworth, right? So this is back 1845, right? And there was a teacher that used to come from Coventry, right? Kamaljeet Singh. Oh, you know, she said for it. And I wanted to. I was too scared of what my dad and my brother would say. Would that. Would they allow me? Right? And so, you know, we're four brothers, right? But it was this one particular brother that played Dorothy that was the bottom. The other two was like, they're easy going. They were like, yeah. Is this what you want to do? Yeah. Kick out, you know, we'll take you. Right. So I had to convince the other two, get the numbers on you, play the numbers game. And then, you know, somehow we missed it. And so I started this Saturday school. They got my hand right on the tabla, and I got to know, you know, the basics of dintal bladder. And that was absolutely amazing. And it was essential because I'd had somewhat of the theory and I had the fault. I've always had the fault, right. But this then was putting everything in perspective, putting it into order. There was discipline, there was location, everything absolutely necessary. And I was very fortunate that I had three years of that. And, you know, and as what happens with these kind of school or state funding kind of things that, you know, they run out of funding or something or other happens. And it actually stopped. And I lost contact with my team. We did have the mobiles in those days and didn't know anything about him until just before lockdown, in fact. Really? [00:26:35] Speaker A: Wow. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I was attending a function that had organized in. Was there? [00:26:47] Speaker A: Say that again. Sorry. You just broke up. You wasted. [00:26:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So Jaggy Rihanna organized a function. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:26:52] Speaker B: And he was there. And I recognized him and mad I could, you know, as you do. Well, you know, Barry hath Jackie. And he's like, and I have to explain to him that I'm the kid, you know, years ago. And was his reaction. Yeah, he was. He was surprised that I still recognize. In fact, he recognized who I was. But by this time, I, from prebender, I'd gone to become tubbsy. Yeah. So he didn't know. He said, I know you subsequently see this topsy is the same prepender that I used to be. That was absolutely surreal for both of us. So. Yeah, but going back to that, you know, sort of had to. It's like what you said, nurture and nature. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:50] Speaker B: So the nature and everything else being at home and having it in my DNA and having that folk and everything else was there. But it wasn't until I went to these school classes that I'd actually been direction and everything else. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Did you, did you ever learn, like, because you're dead, like, I'm more from the singing side of things. Did you ever learn about that part of stuff was up because your dad was a sing singer? [00:28:20] Speaker B: Absolutely not. Interesting. [00:28:22] Speaker A: No. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Okay. [00:28:22] Speaker A: Just. Just interested. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Never. You know, my wife. My wife's from India. Right. When India, they, they, like, they don't even know what musicians are. It was just, there's a singer and that's it. Everybody else on stage is just a block. Right. And she's saying, you know, why don't you sing? You know, if I can't do what they can, they can't do what I can. And it takes two to. I just never have. I've never been that way inclined. I love, I can't put it into words of this instrument. [00:29:08] Speaker A: I will say what I will say about you, because I've played with you, sat with you, rehearsed with you, is that you do know about certain chords and the melody, structure and all that. You have got that knowledge because you've practiced us sometimes. You have got that knowledge again. [00:29:30] Speaker B: It comes. Comes to the ears. You've got to build up over time, and you've got to listen and you've got to. And it's like with any job or any business or anything that you do, you know, you've got to be aware of your environment and you can't just be sort of vision and, you know, and especially with these instruments, I mean, you know, you're talking about soda and everything. When it was finally established that I was, you know, I was destined for stage right before that, about six years old, an Ali Singhit guys came to the house to pick up my brother. Brother, I don't know whether he forgot about the show or whatever it was. He was still at work. So, you know, Leviathan had a younger brother, sadly passed away, right? Sodi was quite close to me. And he said, you know, shortly, the younger one, I'm gonna gig and I'm gonna get a rig. And. And then my brother walks in, right? And he says, no, you're not going anywhere, right? Because the annoying ego goes up, you know, settle with a child to talk to, you know, we said to him, now, we don't want to break his heart. He ain't going anywhere, right? So I've kicked, dreamed and six year old's tantrum. My mom was around then, so, you know, you know, you could come away, right? And my brother explained something that, you know, you know, it's been 44, 45 years, it's been still ringing in my ears. He said, uh, he said, if somebody asks you and you're talking, what would you do? He said, if you tabla ripped on stage, what would you do? I wouldn't do. He was. If it was looted, you had to give it a. What would you do? I said, he goes, well, until you've got the answer to those questions, you're not fit for the stage, man. [00:31:47] Speaker A: Could you repeat those again? Because your voice broke up. I got you. But just wanted to be clear. [00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So basically, you know, if tuning of your instrument, maintenance of your instrument, right? Because my brother said, until you know how to do these things, you're aware. So coming back to your soul and everything else, until you know what's what, you're not fit for stage. You can't go on stage. How can you justify being on stage when you know, you don't know how to tune your instrument or you don't know how to repair your instrument, if it rips or, you know, gets damaged, right. How can you justify. Yeah. Another thing that he said at the top, which is important at the time, I don't know how relevant it is now. Said, well, nobody's gonna blame you for not. They'll blame you to start for not showing you. So he goes, it's gonna come back to us until we say you're ready. You're not ready. [00:32:49] Speaker A: How old were you then? [00:32:51] Speaker B: Six. And you were that six? Well, it wasn't. It wasn't a matter of being good or bad in those days. There wasn't many of us around. It was, you know, still, you must. [00:33:12] Speaker A: Have been like for notice and youth party to come to you. You know, you must have been. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Well, they'd seen me from. They, you know, they were responsible for what I was playing. You know, they, they didn't have rehearsal rooms in those days. You couldn't go to, like, ravanas or, you know, uproar or, you know, pirate. In those days, it was either our front room or Dubai's front room or arm kitchen's front. Right. You know, and that's how it was. Right. So, you know, every now and then they'd be rehearsing ours. Right. And I'd like, they could, you could tell, you know, when somebody's watching with that kind of intent. And the other good thing is my brother couldn't kick me out of the room in front of his friends. He's like, he couldn't jab at me in front of. I got to stay. Yeah. Wow. [00:34:04] Speaker A: That's what a phenomenal background you've had and childhood you've had as well. And you can see now, can't you? So, so you've, you've gone from playing, doing this, learning Dorky that way and learning tabla. And how did that transition to playing with bands? [00:34:26] Speaker B: I think before all of that, there was one really important part was around the same time as the united stuff, it was 3456. Mum used to take me every evening to local gurdwara, the Tamesh temple. That was before our Robbie built in Lasalles. And you've heard of Bojana Gersh. Yeah. Yeah. So Gersh's dad used to play tabladin, and I'd be sitting right at the front and I'd be like, playing on my laps or on my gordie or whatever, and he heard me. Gersh, his dad couldn't see, but he, he could. Yeah. So, you know, when you lose one of your senses, the other senses are more amplified. And he was like, you know, whoever this person is, bring up the stage. And he used to allow me to sit on his laps and play tabla Gordon. And I'm going to show you something. Yep. This Gersh bought it for me just last Christmas. This was the original stint from his dad. That's amazing. [00:35:52] Speaker A: So, guys, just, just the ones who are listening on apple or Spotify audio. So Tubsy buddy's got his double asking the one. [00:36:03] Speaker B: He framed it for me. And, you know, that was my first experience of stage. Wow. Right. You know, sitting on Gersh's dad's laps and playing and him guiding me as well. Right. And just, I don't know. I don't think I can remember anything else about my childhood apart from those things that are physically related. [00:36:40] Speaker A: It's amazing. Like. No, there's one common theme that comes. Comes across to me is just the atmosphere, the family atmosphere that you had then, it's not here now. Do you know what I mean? Like the fact that you've got so many mentors and they're all looking out for you, for you. They're all like, you know, that one big family that's not there anymore. [00:37:03] Speaker B: It's whether it's the sign of the times or whether it's how people, society have progressed. But there was only ever one person, right, that. I don't know whether hostile is the right word, but he was a bit sort of protective of his knowledge he had. And he didn't want to share it. I won't mention any names. He's very successful producer and singer now, right? But he, he just, he was like. Even when he did show me something on the ball, he showed me how to use all the dilly and how to hold the door properly. And he only showed me because my brother had always helped him. Yeah. And he, he said to me, he said, don't show anybody else. He goes, I never went back. That's not how everybody that I'd met before that had been. I didn't like that mentality. I've always been sharing anybody that knows me or has ever met me. Just like sharing, share alike, you know, if you share something, you're not halving it, you're doubling it. And my aim has always been to spread music and to raise awareness about these instruments rather than keep them just hidden. To myself. [00:38:41] Speaker A: I had an idea, actually, topsy. I was. I wanted to. I'm talking to you. I'm going to talk to you about this on the podcast. You can say no. Anyway, so basically, you know what we're talking about your. Your childhood, the way the music was. I had an idea where. I don't know whether this is going to be possible. I was going to talk to you about it off air, but I have to talk to you about it. You know how we. When you were down here at my house, we were rehearsing and stuff. Imagine we had that on a weekly just with no, no, no intent to perform anywhere, but just for the fun. [00:39:11] Speaker B: Of it, you know what I mean? [00:39:13] Speaker A: Weekly thing. And whoever wants to come. Whoever wants to come with a singer, toilet player, you know, vaja player, anyone, just come and have a jam and have a laugh. It'd be amazing to have that kind of atmosphere again, wouldn't it? So. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Well, it's. That's twofold. Right. A. That would be a fantastic atmosphere and everything else, right. And it will go back to the way things were. Right. An example of which was amazing, amazing musician and vocalist. One of my biggest idols, Guy called Bhagar Roshi. Right. Sportsman club in West Brom. Before it was this, you know, barbecue. Yeah, right. It was just. It was just a little brun. And they used to have their instruments set up in there and you could come and go and, you know, it was raw Shani as a band and half of them actually then went on to become a Talmud. He was pretty much open mic, you know, it was something that I used to do. I used to go there twice a week and just to be able to practice and to learn. So that's one aspect of yet open mic atmosphere and everything else. But I think on more of a grave note, more of a sad note, that's all that's going to be is for us to do that because the, you know, the industry is declining. Musicians, that whole atmosphere that you're talking about, the mentals and the family atmosphere right alongside that, the whole demand or the whole enthusiasm for live music in the next generation, you know. [00:41:10] Speaker A: So, yeah, I'm gonna think about. I'm gonna talk to you about off air time, but I just thought I'd drop it on the other thing because I think it'd be a kind of a really nice thing, like, you know, come here. Jab below small, say hello, you know, and, you know, that it reminds you of my childhood sort of thing, you know, like, as, you know, Suki. Suki chan's my mom is son. And so even at his house, he used to have anarchy there. And, you know, the singers coming there and, you know, jamming when Sookie's dad. [00:41:39] Speaker B: Was around, you know, he was the same. Yeah. You know, we used to have a band called John Pejan. [00:41:46] Speaker A: Yep. Yep, that's the one. His photos, you know, he's. You probably seen his photo with a uniform with the Bardian. [00:41:54] Speaker B: I used to play with him as a kid. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Really? [00:41:59] Speaker B: Wow. So, yeah, desi Divas was out of town and, you know, Jandu's got. He's got cardboard books now. [00:42:14] Speaker A: And that was Paul Jandu, was it? I remember the name Paul Dan. And there was a few other names as well. I can't remember now. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Gogi used to learn of my brother. He used to play Gogi as well. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Remember Borsho does he, at that time, I must have been about five, six, maybe four or five, maybe. [00:42:33] Speaker B: Oh, showing my age again. [00:42:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, uh, yeah. Anyway, so, so that was a sort of a slight subject change, but this is what I want the podcast to be like, learning. I want to learn. I've learned so much from you already, you know, and, and just have that sort of, that over the, over the just having a cup of tea sort of atmosphere discussion. And I'm glad it's turned out that way. So the next question was back to that question, how did you transition to the bands from there? [00:43:09] Speaker B: Again, it was my brother's fault. He tried to stop me as much as he could moan. Nimana, right? Sukshinder, Shinda's older brother, right? So he had this band, Nimana Group, and again, they came to pick up my brother, right? It was mourn Nimana, Baba Bakhtara, Soddi, which is Bhagavad's older brother, right? They all came in a cortina mach three, all loaded to the brim with speakers and amplifiers and mic stands and about eight people in it, right? Not to mention the drinks. And my brother was in, brother was at work and like, morning, as we used to call him, was regarded as a bad influence because of drinking and everything. So my dad, my parents, brothers, everybody, they didn't want to tell him where my brother worked. So he was like, look, I've got at a show and that I haven't got. I haven't got a percussionist, right? Shinda was young, right? And he said, you know, I need see them. And then he caught, you know, he caught me. And I used for a while, I was called shot as he goes. And instead of giving my morning the whereabouts of my brother, they thought, well, it was probably better just to send me. And that was my first show, first wedding show with Nirvana group. And there's a funny story, right? So me and Shinda, we used to have these little dude with white ramals and cute little things, right? And what morning used to do is like, we used to have Saturdays and Sundays, so on a Saturday it will be Shinda's birthday, right? So he used to push to the front of the stage and say, oh, look, you know, it's his birthday today, and, you know, all the people and everybody will go on, you know, give the pounds and whatever, right? And on the Sunday, it would be my birthday every week. But that's how it started. And then sort of crossed over into more mainstream bands was we were playing at. There used to be a problem called the Three Mile oak in West Brom. Don't expect any of you guys to remember. And Apnap Bhajan was filming and Jet, bhajan and Jet, jackpot. Were filming it. This wedding and debt is slightly older than me, but sort of same sort of age group. And I didn't know that they had a band, you know, at their school, which is mostly just, you know, it was Jet, his brother Raj, right? Butta Jagpal, we all know from B 21. And his brother Bali, right? And then there was Gurjan from Gurjan. Fantastic matchup now, right? And these guys used to rehearse at Bhoota's house and the band's name was Kalakar. So Bhajan and Jet approached me. They said, look, you know, these guys are all older than you. And even though Shinda wasn't significantly older than us, well, he's four years older than me, but he was still in their category. He was more towards the sort of traditional folk kind of thing. Whereas the rest of us, we were kind of, you know, more to the UK pongar as we know it now. Some more DLR PD's, right? And so when they put it to me like that, I was like, yeah, man. So that was on a Sunday and the Monday. Again, don't hold dumbbells. I walked from my house, which at the time was by Hansworth park and everything, right? I'm just assuming everybody. So all the way to Rukhvi road and I landed on, you know, bhajan's old shop. Oh, yeah. Come on, let's go, you know. Where is everybody? What's going on? So they had to kind of like, kind of wind me down a little bit. Said, okay, okay, right. You know, um, long, long story short, um, kalakar, um, you know, we were a boy band, right? I only did one show with them. Um, but we. One was at a primary school and the other one we did at a Blue monkey nightclub in Newcastle. [00:48:23] Speaker A: Well, say that again. You just broke up slightly. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Then we did two shows, one at a primary school and one at a place called the Blue Monkey nightclub in Newcastle. Right? Bajan used to manage a band called Milap at the same time. And Uttar was in Satran. He was already in Satrang at that time. Sorry. [00:48:47] Speaker A: I think Suki was in Satrang, wasn't he? [00:48:49] Speaker B: No, no. This is way before Sukhistan. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Okay? [00:48:52] Speaker B: Way before Sukhistan. And so we carried on playing, practicing and everything else. And then sort of a post became available in Satran. They were looking for more percussionists and jazz. Gill used to moonlight as a video man with bhajan and they both used to go around with upnasigit. So Jazgil asked bhajan and bhajan said, well, yeah, this. There's a guy in my, in my son's room, right? You know, he's his older brother, Seidel. And Jazgild knew Seital as well. So he said, yeah. Well, Jazgild came along to that blue monkey knife. That's where he posed the question. He took, how'd you fancy play this? And sat down. Were very, very popular, you know, without an album release, without even an advertisement in those days in the this for this, they were still heavily booked. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Which single was it at that time? [00:49:54] Speaker B: At that time it was jazz guilt and Surinder. Maan. Surinderman. But incidentally, I bumped into a couple of weeks ago after at least 35. [00:50:04] Speaker A: 36 years because I know Satrang from when they had slim. [00:50:09] Speaker B: No, again, slim dipa way afterwards. Yeah, way afterwards. Right? So that's how I kind of got into Satrang. And when I, when I came into Satrang, Satrang was already popular and me being. I was 1314, right? So being young and percussionist, sort of my name kind of got around in the grapevine. There's this kid. Because the only other person of that kind of age was Shinda, that was popular. Myself, Bram was known as, well, brim Sondi plays dorogy. Bram and Tinder were like more towards the traditional kind of bands and not the UK kind of sex, you know it, right. And so that's how that sort of came about. And then, like I said, with Roshani and they used to have that open bike kind of atmosphere and I used to attend, but I wanted this. So Tuesdays and Thursdays we used to practice with satram. Mondays, Wednesday, Fridays I used to go to West Brom to practice with Rushdie, right. Because I just wanted to be around this. And so playing in that environment, people coming and going. And it was from that environment that I got my first recording, uh, with a band called international. The album was called return of international. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Um, that rings a bell. International band rings of Altamir. I don't know why I can't. [00:51:57] Speaker B: Yeah, from Walsall, they changed their name to Anuka and. And then they changed it back. Um, yeah, sadhu, the late banshee, um, Rana plays donkey. His son tungt plays drums. And Sadhu's son used to play keyboards. Right? And yet. So that all was, that all came about of being in the right place at the right time, you know, free social media, pre mobile phones and all the rest of it. So you had to network and you had to show that you were good for it as well. You could play and you were reliable and all the other stuff. So, you know, and that's. That's how it all progressed from. From Satrang. I was sought after by Mulqid for a long time. Mukid's thing. Yeah, I think he wanted to. He wanted to make some changes in his. And again, there was a traditional kind of sound, but with Naramji Kurigaranji, all things changed for them. They had to. They were playing in clubs. [00:53:12] Speaker A: But it's still part of Golden Star that point. [00:53:15] Speaker B: He was still part of Golden Star. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Yeah. He was golden Star then, wasn't it? Yeah, with the. [00:53:19] Speaker B: I did a. I did a tour with them. We went to Kenya when I was 1617. You know, I went on tours, you know, and I played all the pieces that were on the albums. Right. And he was like, we've got to. We've got to do something. We've got to set the. I was reluctant to leave Satram because by then, you know, Satram became sort of. It was my band. It was something that I was part of. I was part of the mechanic and we were doing the gift. We weren't short of shows. So, you know, there wasn't any incentive for me to go with milk either. From my dad was saying, look, if you're going to do this, you may as well do this with the right people. You know, trying to get a bit of a reputation for the narcotics. Right. And I was gaining a reputation for the alcohol. [00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:22] Speaker B: Which, you know, a lot of people. So my dad was trying to, you know, get me out of that whole circle with mulgit and, you know, respectable kind of client who paid better than as well. But, you know, those, those kind of things were happening at that time. [00:54:47] Speaker A: So just, just quick side note, what was the difference? Because playing live and playing in a studio and when did you first play in a recording? Because I'm really interested in that because. [00:54:59] Speaker B: My first recording, like I said, was international. It was. It was actually. We did the tape. The recording was recorded at the same studio as Adonis first album. It was on Stafford street in water. The studio engineer was a guy called John Harris. Sadly passed away. Also Clive Wootton, artist for Azad. Right. So that. And Girish also used to be the guitarist for Kang. So also led to a lot of other work in the future. My first recording, it was a bit of. A. Bit of a shock because now you're not bouncing off other musicians. You are listening to something that you have to react to on your own. And playing with my dad in those evenings, that's where it actually clicked. That experience of him teaching me how to compose, what to play when it's like when somebody throws something at you, how do you catch it? And that's some. That's. That's music as well. You have to. I. When I record, I always insist on having the guide vocals because I play to the music, to the mood of the song. So to a happy kind of song or, you know, upbeat kind of thing, you play differently. You're the mood of your percussion, especially the bottom end. Right? Um. It contributes or even sets that mood almost like the basketball, western sort of circles. So that's when all of that sort of kind of kicked in that you're okay. They've played me this, right? So this is what I'm going to play in the phrase. This is what I'm going to play in the cross line. This is what I'm going to play in the chorus. This is what I'm going to play when first off of the music piece. And I'm going to play a bridge to go into the second half of the music piece. And then I would play this for the vocal to come back in. Nobody had shown me that and I'm pretty grateful that nobody had tried to show me that, you know, because that's something that I figured out self and, you know, not blowing my own trumpet. But I then sort of halved out my own sound. And that's where the UK percussion sound was actually born. Because I've looked up to Pandit Dinesh Kujit Bamraji, right, their percussion on all of those formative albums. I combined theirs, my brothers and my dad's. And it all kind of come out in one big fusion, right? Because Dinesh's background was Bombay. Golgi's background was also, you know, sort of from Africa, you know, Ismail Sheikh and Kojiji also did a lot of work with back in the seventies and eighties as well. So a lot of indian stuff was going on. But the whole UK sound was then sort of a fusion of all of their stuff. And all because I was not a crew with a set of headphones with a song that I've heard for the first time. And I had to react to it. I had to pose there and then, right. And you know, in those days, you know, the band was paid for the studio time, it was all racking up and they made a point. I think it was 15 at the time, 1415 at the time. Those guys were amazing. Sadhu. There's a guy called his son Rama, and they actually do his name. He was a double up left. He sort of looked out for me because they were all my brother's mates, so they kind of. It was their responsibility, you know, they had that obligation, my brother, to look out for. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Even that's gone. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. That's not here now. [00:59:40] Speaker B: Yes, totally, totally get it. And so that's. That's how, you know, that was. I wasn't so conscious about it at the time, but I can still remember now that you've asked me about it, sitting there and thinking, I got this. Right. But a lot of my stage work and also came through on my recordings. The difference between my recordings as opposed to others is that if especially on an upbeat song or a dance song, that's how I would play. I could. I could see those people on the dance floor, right. And, you know, even on stage, I don't complicate it too much, because the name of the game when you're on stage is for people to dance and enjoy themselves. But if you're playing a whole lot of complicated stuff, they can't get it right. You're not doing them any favors and they're never going to book you, but you've got to keep it sort of relevant. And that's how even on my recordings, everything else, it would be a workout because I played like I'd be playing on stage and I wanted that to come through. And you know what? A lot of people won't get this. That's actually ruin those. You know, it's only an audio, right. But it does somehow filter through that enthusiasm, that passion does come through on the recordings. You know, if you ever get a chance, I think it's online somewhere. The return of international, you know, even I've listened to it sometimes I'm thinking, you know, it is crazy. And then we all want take mostly, you know, but, you know, that's. That was so. I had a lot of similarities between my stage and recording, but the recording stuff was like, you know, you're up against the time constraint. There is the discipline of timing. Right? Was it a track? [01:02:09] Speaker A: Was it on a click? Or did you have the other tracks already recorded? Or was it with a band? [01:02:14] Speaker B: I used to ask for the backing. Sorry, the guide vocals, at least. [01:02:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:20] Speaker B: And at least some music piece to play, too, because again, I'm accompanying, right? And I want to complement the music piece, right? And I want to play to the mood of that music piece, right? But having said that, one of my, one of my most known works was never mind the Dalits by Satram. And when we did pending and Eboligan, when I actually played on that, there were no music pieces, right? So that was done the other way around. I composed the profession title to which then, you know, played the mandolin and the bando. So Dave was like, okay, he's playing this. So this is what complement what he's playing. [01:03:12] Speaker A: So was there no song written at that point? [01:03:14] Speaker B: No, the vocals were there. Love it all was born on stage. Was born at Pendiford High School as a sound check, right? When we would, you know, in those days, we used to get there early, right, and deep buzz, and I've got this song I want to play, and that daughter just came and it stuck from them, right? And Byron joined in with the Sat. Now, Sasha, Uncle Seamus, on the drums ever we did on that sound check, and we recorded Dunlavid a few times. I think we recorded it at least six times in different studios. It was always the same. [01:04:05] Speaker A: What a song, to be fair. [01:04:07] Speaker B: And that's how we used to. I was. I was telling, um, one of our band members the other day, the charm guy, that's how used to gauge what songs to use on the album. So even the songs on Nevermind the Daleks were done. You know, we used to perform on one stage way before, right? But don't love it or not, shone out because people were receptive to it. We danced. We're like, okay, we've got to record this, right? Because if these people are dancing to it at weddings, then it will sell and it will do well for us. Parlangade, Slim's dad, had that ep. My dad had that ep. So Slim, me, Slim and Butler were just practicing at my house when Slim first came into the band. [01:04:57] Speaker A: We're talking about Satran version one. [01:04:59] Speaker B: Satran one came first. [01:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:05:01] Speaker B: Because me and Bertrand, Satan, all we were suffering was. And Slim saw the ep in my dad's collection. He said, oh, I've got that as well. And he goes, that's a really sanguine. The music was pretty simple, right? And we thought, okay, let's try it this weekend. We tried it. It went down well. We developed it. Developed it. We recorded it, right? And, you know, when we transitioned over to Safari boys, because Satram, the thing with Satran, was that popular and that busy. You know, we were a bit complacent. We just like, yeah, we'll do it next weekend. There was no need, there was no urgency. So it got leaked so many times. We recorded it so many times we used to take out outtakes and everybody knew us for that. Anyway, part of that, they got leaked loads of times, right. And there was just the drive wasn't there for the recordings. We were like, you know, it doesn't matter. We're who we are anyway, so then, you know, Saffrey got hold of it and, you know, we, me and Byron, we went to do when actually the final versions, we recorded the suffering one on a Tuesday evening and the following day, Wednesday lunchtime, we went and did the tatrang one. And, you know, me and Byron were on both of them. Wow. But yeah, it was a cover version and, you know, there wasn't any right or wrong. You know, sufferey was just as entitled to release it as upgrading. [01:06:58] Speaker A: I don't know whether you better do that these days. [01:07:01] Speaker B: No, not these days. [01:07:03] Speaker A: Tops are different. It's been over an hour, tubsy, so I'm not going to keep you long now. So, yeah, it's been fascinating talking to you. Yeah. So I just want to finish it off with. As I said, this whole podcast is just in the pursuit of musical excellence. What would you say to anyone who wants to pick up music and wants to get further in Dholak or any instrument or singing? Any sort of what advice would you, would you, would you, would you give them? [01:07:33] Speaker B: Simple, really do it. You know, you guys have now got so many, but we didn't have. Now you can go onto YouTube, there's loads of people teaching, right? You can go into Instagram nowadays and people teaching on Instagram, right? There's so much there to listen and learn from. Whereas our resources were limited. Anything that was coming from India, you'd have to fight. Work out the percussion because it was so low in the middle. There's so much out there. But above all, there's a need, right? Our live instruments are now, you know, they're dying away. You know, these horrible people are sampling everything, right? It's going to come, it has to do a full circle because you run out of samples and you run out of this, that and the other, right. And you have to come back to people playing and that creativity. Like I said, being in the dark room with headphones and being faced with the situation and having to on your feet. Imagine that challenge and what I've recorded or what anybody's ever recorded. That is your mark in history. I contributed to. To Bangladesh, you know, just as much as people like, you know, and HG and, you know, and other people, because, you know, I've been in there and you've got to be in it to win it. So, you know, make your mark, come out there and, you know, there's no good, but there's no, you know, you know. Oh, no, there is no grading, right. You know, it's all about the effort that you. Right. And your enthusiasm, your dedication. Right. And you. Right. You know, there are people out there that have done so much for this industry, but if you look at them as a technical player, there may not be multi technical issues, but they've, they've done so much, you know, they've bought kids, they've, they've, they've done so much for charities. They've done, you know, and there's endless examples. So this, this industry needs you. Right. You know, kind of thing. Your genre needs you, you, culture need you, your language needs you, you know, we need musicians, right? And we need those. What we're going to talk about affair, those, those open mic kind of atmospheres, you know, we need that solidarity. We need people to sort of come together and say, you know what? You know, this is not about the money or the fame or anything else. This is just about getting together and having a good time. [01:10:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:10:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:58] Speaker A: I haven't even chatted to you about the live experience yet. I want to see how well that was put together. Dear Bonjour Haggard. [01:11:09] Speaker B: The live experience is all of the above. The live experience came about because I wanted to steer away from using samples and loops on stage. We wanted to have something that unique. That's just Ivan. That's hence why it's called live experience. But more so, it was about giving everybody an opportunity to play. I've got some amazing, amazing musicians in the band. I'm in their band, then I band, you know, one of the most dedicated musicians ever. He travels from Manchester every week to rehearse. Richie travels from Bedford every week to rehearse. He plays guitar, he plays bass. Right, juggie, iconic bangla drummer from Adamica. Originally partners in rhyme. And then DC's. He's the octopad player from India. Again, one of the backbones of the band. Steven Sahota helped me set up the band. Navi, the guy you saw on Instagram last night. Now we've got two of the young editions, Bishop and Vishal, chamber multi talented musicians. Gian Saul, you know, I'm talking like a whole array of musicians. Mister Kaspar from Southampton, musicians that would otherwise not get a chance, not get a look in, right. You know, young musicians like these are people that you have not heard of yet, but you will because we, we're giving them the platform. Nobody would, you know, the vocalist that you heard yesterday, right. Deji, you know, and someone on top of Sarika Gill. Right. Also somebody that we've been nurturing, right. And so not just vocalists, but musicians anybody wants to play has got a platform and that's within the live experience, right? Yes, we've got our core sort of setup, but there is room there for us to rock people in, you know, and play and perform because even that. [01:13:39] Speaker A: Experiences and it going on stage, otherwise you're never going to get that experience going on stage. [01:13:45] Speaker B: The amount of messages and DM's that we get from people that just say, look, just even if you don't allow us on stage, can we just come to rehearsal? Just let us in rehearsal because that is just not heard of anymore. That is just goldust now just a rehearsal room where people playing absolutely 100% live music. No gimmicks, no samples, no loops, just 100% live. We've been presented with times where we've had to sort of, you know, say, okay, you know, there's certain vocalists and especially the ones from India, right. And every now and then we've had to sort of throw our hat in the ring and say, well, okay, we'll do it as a one off. Our USP is that, you know, we can, we can pull it off better than any sample. And GD has our own sample anyways, my brothers. Right. But yeah, you know, that's, that's the live experience. And, and, you know, do look out, you know, on our social media, you know, to anybody. [01:14:48] Speaker A: Do you want to tell the listeners of where to find you, where to find your music yourself and the live experience and your musicians if you want to. [01:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So myself on all social media platforms, whether it's Facebook or whether it's Insta TikTok or Snapchat, it's just silly. And the band is on all platforms as well as the live experience. Live band, right. Do follow each individual musician. It's very important, right. You know, members look at what they're doing individually as well as the band. Because without musicians, and I mentioned this before, you're a vocalist, right. But without musicians, right. Shin said this, the 1987. There is nothing without his band. And a band, you know, needs a singer, right. We need that message to get across. There isn't a divide. It's not one or the other. Right? You need both. And where's the dorky? I know I'm taking up a lot of your time. [01:16:09] Speaker A: No, no, I can go on for another hour. [01:16:12] Speaker B: Where's the Torki is actually born from that philosophy. I did a charity function and so these academics are like, so what do we get? I, you know, they wanted to get me something in return for doing this whole event and raising this money, right? And it was them that made that placard. But I didn't get it. I don't drink anymore, so I know exactly where my dog is, right? And then they explained, they said, you know, all, every time we see you, you're batting on about how music should be live and you don't like these PA performances and everything else. So that's where the talk is about. So when somebody's doing a pa, when somebody's binding, don't public should be able to go up to them and say, where's the dorky? Why isn't this live? Right? Because donkey is the one instrument that's kind of prominent in UK, right? So that was message and that's. That's why, you know, where's the donkey? That's where it comes from. So, you know, promoting live music, we need to make it accessible, right? I understand about budgets and constraints. I'm a family member like anybody else. And that's where you guys, Marge, you guys, you vocalists, right? Listen up, right? You need to listen to Joe public. You need to kind of, you know, not out price, not just yourselves, but everybody out of the market, right? Because unfortunately that's what's happening. Because the parties are that high, right? It's just not. You can't do it. [01:18:12] Speaker A: So do you think that's the reason why the band scene is dark? Because I wanted to ask you, sorry for taking too much of your time. [01:18:19] Speaker B: That's exactly what happened. That's exactly what happened. So you've got the eighties and the beginning of the nineties where there's a massive boom. Everybody's giggling. I've just told you, sat down without a release, without even one single radio interview. Nothing in the disparities ever, right? We were one of the most. Sangam was another band, you know, Bikurtami, Jaz, Tamil. Those guys. We were crazy. Like chocolate block. What we had, we were. Our gigs were comparable to like the likes of Alop and Hira and DC's and up NASA gate, right? Why was it. It was because we were affordable, right? It was because, you know, like Volkswagen, right? You know, Volkswagen means people's car. We were people's kind of industry, right? You got a wedding in the family. What was the first thing you thought of? It was the entertainment, because it was. Yeah. Right. Now it's the last. And so that's what it needs to come back to. You know, we all. I've got to make a living, granted, right? And nobody likes away money, and I get that too. Right? But there's got to be. There's got to be a capsule, right? It's like the energy prices or whatever. It's got to be. You've got to say, well, look, enough's enough now. And that's what happened. Eighties and nineties, everything's going fine. And then all of a sudden, you know, this one guy who mentioned before, he decides to say, look, okay, I'm going to separate myself on the band. Still have a band, but it's going to be so and so, you know, on the plaque, I'm going to charge x amount. I'm going to pay the band probably less than what I used to pay them before, right? And that's how it's gonna be. And then when he started doing it, other bands that used to go under the band name, all of a sudden they started going under the singers names. Some of the most popular bands in the industry disbanded, went from something single to something group, just so that the singers could earn extra. And it just spiraled. They were like, how much is someone charging? Oh, he's charging three grand for himself. And then for the band, I'm going to charge three and a half. If he's charging three and a half, I'm going to charge five. And it just spiraled out of control until we're a DJ mixing. Claire is probably one of the pioneering DJ's and Mister Andes, right? Those guys were only getting booked for birthday parties or pre wedding. All of a sudden they're like getting, you know what? The fans are too expensive now, right? Can you do a wedding? You reckon you can carry it off? By that time we were released, so much material that they could. They could play hours on end, the same songs, you know, studio sound quality, right? And then DJ started investing in bigger sound systems and lights and we built. Today you've got where we're at. And that started off by singers getting greedy. And I'm saying it how it is. [01:22:04] Speaker A: No, you can. And I'd like to say one thing. [01:22:07] Speaker B: To like, that's where you guys, you guys the new generations. Right. Need to say, well, actually, what do we want here? Do we want to make a fast block or do we want longevity? Do we want to see this industry pass down to and generations? Do you want to make that mark in history I've been talking about, or do you want to make that mark of the bank account for the next months and then that's it. And if you don't believe me, any changes over the come over in the last 510 years have lasted as long as Alap Heera, DC's apnasigit Pradeshi premi. [01:22:48] Speaker A: Not many. [01:22:48] Speaker B: They're still there. 45 years after is the most, is the best example. [01:23:00] Speaker A: Say that again. Who did you mention? Sorry. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. [01:23:07] Speaker B: One of the finest vocals, one of the most crude vocals. One of the most knowledgeable people in the industry. Still going. Why? Because he's got his feet on the. [01:23:16] Speaker A: Ground and he's a lovely guy as well. Absolutely, yeah, lovely guy. [01:23:22] Speaker B: I have called him on the 11th hour and said, pali, can you be at such and such a place in an hour? And he'll be there and he won't have a chip on his shoulder. He won't make an unreasonable demand. Whenever you ask him to get to a show, he's there before the PA arrives, he's there like four or 5 hours early. He's dedicated, he's professional and he's not, you know, and that's why 67, 65 odd years later, he's still performing. How many people can you tell me over the past five years that are still doing that? People have come, they've gone, disappeared. So what would you rather have a residual income or something that's going to service you for a few months or for a couple of years at Max? [01:24:09] Speaker A: Absolutely. I'm just saying, any, any, you know, when I formal Nelson and stuff on that, like, any shows I've done, like, you know, sometimes I don't get paid, tubsy, but we'll make sure our musicians get paid, you know, they're with us, a sport. And that's how it should be, I think, you know, like it's, it's, it's. [01:24:29] Speaker B: No, no, I think every. I'm going back quite a few years. Anadi sangeet never used to. Taj, if you said to Anadi Sangeet, are you available on the 14 April in Glasgow, they'd say, they would never say to you, yeah, pandra sappondo, doha pond or dorsal pond or punjab or anything. They would make their money on stage, they would work for it, they would graft for it. They would make the money on stage. And this has happened to me. I used to have a volkswagen van, right? Because of a table in the back. They would then get the money, and they would start off with. In those days, it was just one pound notes, five pound notes, and ten pound notes. You know, I'm talking about before even 20 pound notes and 50 pound notes, they would get the one pound notes, and they wouldn't even count them. They would put them in piles, you know, like you do on the cards. Yeah, they sell, right. They would like. And because I was the youngest, they would say to me, you picked the first pile. They wouldn't even count it, right? Then would come the fives, and then would come the tens. They wouldn't even count it. You would just, like, pick up the pile, right? So if I went first on the one pound, the next person would go next on the five pounds, and the next person. And nobody used to say, oh, he got a bigger pile than me, or, I want to count his pile, right? And that solidarity and that family atmosphere that you were talking about when we first started, right? That's what I. The singers were in the same boat. Everybody was in the same boat, right? I've been to Gibbs with Kira. Everybody's loading the van, everybody's unloading the van, and everybody's equal. Right? So, you know, and Satran were the same. Upanas and git used to be the same. Right. So when that all changed, right. You know, it's like they say, you know, kind of money is the root of all evil. When that all changed, so did, you know, the whole industry, right? So that's. That's what you've got to kind of. That's where the decline sort of came, you know? Please, kind of. Kind of crept in is important. I'm saying it's not. And I'm not saying that, you know, okay. You know, you know, become monks, as it were. Right. But, you know, there needs to be some sort of regulation. This is what general public can. We all live in the same world. We're all part of this cost of living crisis. We're all part of whatever's going on. And we should have a reflection. Yes. The more there's a hierarchy of people, people that are more popular or whatever, but, you know, it's a long conversation, but it's a conversation that, you know. [01:27:49] Speaker A: This is going to be an interesting one when I do my snippets for this, so I'll tag you in anyway. Thank you so much. You've already said, where you can follow you, where we can follow you. And, yeah, I'm going to close this recording. So, guys, if you do like, what you've heard from Tubbs, you make sure you follow him. And if, and leave us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify and then YouTube, just drop a comment. Even if it's good or bad, it still helps the algorithm. [01:28:20] Speaker B: Give me the good ones. Give the bad ones to ranj. [01:28:22] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I'm going to stop recording. And so, guys. Yeah? Make sure see us check the next one out in two weeks. It's every fortnightly now. I'm doing a bit, a bit more regular. So, yeah, we're trying to get this whole musical excellence thing going. Thank you, guys, and God bless you all.